Doing More with Less and Aligning GTM Teams to the Customer Journey with Lorena Morales, Director of Global Digital Marketing Revenue Operations at JLL

In this episode of the Revenue Insights Podcast, host Lee Bierton is joined by Lorena Morales, Director of Global Digital Marketing Revenue Operations at JLL. They discuss how she set up the RevOps team at JLL, the challenges of scaling it, and why RevOps must be aligned internally and with the customer journey. 

Lorena Morales is the Director of Global Digital Marketing Revenue Operations at JLL, a global real estate enterprise with over 90,000 employees. She started the revenue operations division at JLL and is currently responsible for implementing revenue operations across eight global locations. Before joining JLL, she was a full-time advisor at RevBrains. 

• Lorena’s LinkedIn
• JLLs Website
• Lorena’s Book Recommendation –  Founder Brand by Dave Gerhardt, A Whole New Mind by Daniel Pink, Anti-Fragile by Nassim Taleb 

Time Stamps

01:12 – 04:25- Lorena’s Story

05:29 – 09:05 – How working with revenue operations inspired Lorena to move across from marketing

09:15 – 11:46 – RevOps needs to align everything to the customer 

12:29 – 14:27 – How JLL’s RevOps department is being built from scratch

14:39 – 16:40 – The ‘J8s’ – the different markets RevOps is responsible for at JLL

17:21 – 19:09 – Why not having consistent lead statuses is so problematic

19:49 – 22:22 – Why implementing new tools at a global company is a unique challenge

23:20 – 25:00 – The challenges of implementing RevOps at scale

25:34 – 27:22 – Why generalists are helping JLL to adapt to the market

27:39 – 28:43 – How JLL is encouraging curiosity in RevOps

29:30 – 30:22 – How to do more with less

31:04 – 34:02 – How the US job market is culturally different

35:14 – 37:07 – Lorena’s Book Recommendation

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Transcript

Revenue operations is a change and as every change it takes a process and the first thing is laying down the foundations and fixing the pipes in order to create some value.

So yeah, I think it was both it was the culture but it was also the challenge of like building something from scratch. Welcome to Revenue Insights. Every week we’ll be joined by revenue leaders from some of the most successful and highest growing companies. Together we explore how they built their revenue teams, the journeys that they’ve been on and the lessons they have learned along the way.

Revenue Insights is brought to you by Epstor. We’re a revenue intelligence platform designed to help revenue teams to build more pipeline, close more deals and retain more customers. Hello there, listener. Welcome back to Revenue Insights. Today I’m picking the brains of Lorena Morales. She’s the Director of Global Digital Marketing Revenue Operations at JLL. Thanks for letting me some of your time, Lorena.

Of course, Lee. It’s my absolute pleasure to be in your podcast. I’m a soccer podcast, so interviews like this make me energized and I enjoy them quite a little. So happy to be here. Amazing. I’m really interested to dig a bit more into your journey. I’ve been reading up on your background and your career history and actually listening to some of the other podcasts that you’ve done.

Often the thing that I picked up on that was the change that you’ve had in your career to date. You’re in perhaps one of the longest job titles I’ve ever seen, Global Digital Marketing Revenue Operations. So I’d love for you to give a bit more color around that.

What has been your story to get to this point?

Well, first you’re right. Between my name and my job title, my business cards are insane.

They wanted to trim them at the very beginning because it was like, your name is long, your title is long, where are we going to go?

So apart from the fancy title, what it means is that back in the days I was in the consultancy space as the VP of Marketing for Revenue Operations as a service company. And that was my first jump into Revenue Operations back in 2018.

And so I kind of heard the word for the first time, the CEO asked me to join the company because he was interested in my design thinking background and design and product design and all these things that I’ve done previously. And suddenly he told me, hey, there’s this thing that is not going to be a buzzword anymore.

It’s going to be a methodology that companies are going to start implementing because it’s a need.

Would you be willing to run the marketing department for us?

And I said, yes, I just jumped to the opportunity without knowing what the hell was Revenue Operations. And so today, a couple of years later, JLL needed kind of a fresh set of eyes to come to the company or fresh blood because they are starting to invest in the methodology. We’re starting to see that Revenue Operations is not unique to the SaaS businesses.

Now it’s enterprise companies and these huge organizations that are betting on, hey, maybe if I convert from legacy operations to revenue operations, I want to start to see more revenue and prevent revenue because just in order to do my customer journey a little more smooth. And so my title, what it means apart from the fancy name is that I run the eight regions that are more profitable for the company.

So I deal with APAC, with the MIA and with Americas, with the specific countries to really come together as a team. And for example, right now, we are working on defining the lead management programs for each one of the regions. That’s a beast. That’s a beast by its own. And I think the company needs help in the sense of we have 86 CRMs. So consolidating that, it’s a major, major effort right now.

It’s not under my wheelhouse, but I am helping with the effort. I am being considered in the effort that is happening there. I have to do with the LLQAP consolidations as well. Making people understand and educate people around what is revenue operations and how you can benefit from it, work cross-functionality or in a cross-functionality way.

All these things that revenue operations bring to the table is exactly what I’m trying to do at JML or Jones Langley’s outcome, as many people know it. Amazing. And I’m really interested to understand because a lot of the operations leaders that I’ve spoken to, obviously, revenue operations typically, they’re typically coming from a sales background or it’s been a sales operations background.

You were, I believe, VP of marketing at GoNimble and then you’ve made the transition. So I’m interested to know why.

What was it about revenue operations that made you want to take a pretty big sideways, well sideways, kind of upwards jump?

At some point at my previous company, I was involved with the customers. So delivering the revenue operations as a service to the customers directly. So I got to see from the first site, transformation in businesses that was very real and that was very, very fast and very complex and very misunderstood.

So that for me alone was a challenge to say, do I want to work in this?

Yes or no. And so it was kind of an inherited love because as I told you before, I didn’t know what this thing was. The CEO educated me and some other people in the company.

The CSO, which is now the new CEO, also a brilliant mind in the space, helped me understood what was this function that ultimately, because that’s what happens, it ultimately becomes a function. What happened inside of me was I saw the opportunity and I started to see operators become more strategists into the revenue table. They didn’t have that chance before.

And I was one of the very first generations of people among with other friends of mine that are marvelous in the space to really start executing on revenue operations. So I learned the methodology, I executed on it. And when JLL called me, there was no other way for me but to say yes, because what was more interesting now to me or more appealing was the opportunity to work with a global team.

That’s something that I didn’t have before. The opportunity of being in a room with 12 different accents, for me, it’s unbelievable. And for me, it’s what energizes me and it’s what makes me smile because I was a little bit dumb because I’ve been in the Bay Area for 11 years, or even though I am Mexican, I’ve been in the Bay Area for 11 years, almost working for the white guy, mostly for startups.

And I didn’t get this sense of diversity, true diversity. And that’s what I have at JLL. And a little more organization, if you must say. Even though things move a little slower, I think the organizational structure for me, it feels more safe and it feels more comfortable.

It fits a little better than the hectic life of a startup where like every single day you’re working 24-7 into putting fires down and these type of things.

So yeah, that’s how the change happened. But pure marketing or traditional marketing, as people know it, is and was always my strong suit, even though I became and I describe myself as a holistic executive, revenue executive, because I understand the business broadly.

I’m equally dangerous in customer success and I am in marketing, but I am in sales because I learned myself the processes that need to take into, for example, compensation models or like, for example, how to really upsell and cross-sell effectively, how to manage those accounts, how to merge the GTM strategies with those strategies as well.

So all those things took me to where I am today and I think I don’t regret a single thing. Something that really stood out to me there is you were talking about like the team that you found at JLL. I wonder where that’s almost like a cultural fit in a way, as you mentioned, coming over from starting your career over in Mexico, going to the US.

I know from being in the UK to the US, it’s slightly different, right?

And from a language perspective, we don’t have quite the same differences to what you’ve got there. And that’s the thread that I actually want to continue probably a little bit later. But I’m really interested to continue the line that you talked about was from marketing, because obviously typically with revenue operations, you’re coming from a, you know, more usually from like a sales background.

So do you think coming from a marketing background gives you a different perspective to how you’re now doing revenue operations at JLL?

Definitely, because if there are the two departments that understand truly the customer, for me, it’s customer success and marketing. And what revenue operations offers is a new way of thinking where it’s a methodology that is very human centered. If you don’t focus on your customer, there’s no real definition of revenue operations. Revenue operations, yes, is aligning your GTM teams.

Yes, it’s breaking some silos.

Yes, it is finding the revenue linkages.

Yes, it is working with the systems.

Yes, all these things. But if you don’t map all these processes and all this mapping and all these projects to your customer journey, there’s no way revenue operations is going to work. Your focus is your customer. And I think my obsession, I actually wanted to study psychiatry at some point in my life. I just decided that I didn’t want to spend 10 years at school knowing that I had my own problems.

How am I going to solve other problems if I have a million by myself?

But that obsession about the mind is what took me to marketing to really understand how we behave and what behaviors take to a purchase. And so that aspect alone, I think helps a bunch on seeing how revenue operations works with other departments, especially the GTM teams, but also product finance and other teams that are not always talked about.

I feel like I’m cut very much from the same cloth in the sense of I also love the idea of studying psychiatry at some point. And perhaps it’s something that brings people into marketing where you just want to understand the people that you’re trying to reach out to. But really interesting that that ultimately has enabled you to bring together a perspective of all the different teams that you’re then working with.

And so on that note then, what was it about the role at JLL that really attracted you to?

We’ve talked a little bit about the culture.

Was it just that or was it kind of beyond what JLL was trying to achieve that attracted you into it?

I think what attracted me to it is it was that it’s never been done before. This is a role that it’s absolutely new to the company. Even though we do have revenue operations in a sister company, JLL, the big JLL does not have revenue operations anywhere. So this is a role that it’s built from scratch.

And me, I think a part of me is always going to want to be a builder, and a builder of things, and a creator. And I think that’s what incentivates me to keep doing good work. And so when they offered me the opportunity of like, you’re going to build this function from scratch, there was no other way than to say, yes, absolutely, I’m interested.

Yes, absolutely. I’m interested.

Has it been easy?

Hell no. Hell no. It’s been a rollercoaster, because you’re dealing with an organization of a hundred, I think we’re 110,000 employees right now, or a hundred and nine thousand, something around those lines. It’s a massive company. You don’t iterate as easily as you can in a startup. You don’t see sprints as easily as you can see in a hyper-growth company.

And so these things, eventually, they started to hit me to say, like, okay, probably the value that I’m going to bring to the company is not going to show as fast as it would show in another company. But my boss knew this, and my manager knows that, that the value that my team is going to bring, it’s not going to be visible probably until 2024, 2025, because revenue operations is, it’s a change.

And as every change, it takes a process. And the first thing is laying down the foundations and fixing the pipes in order to create some value.

So yeah, I think it was both. It was the culture, but it was also the challenge of, like, building something from scratch. I love that. And curious to note, first, that you mentioned that you’re building the team.

Could you just give a bit more context on what your team looks like now?

Yes. So my team looks like, as I said, we are in charge of the eight more profitable regions. They are called the J8s. And so the J8s are India, Japan, China, Australia, UK, Germany, France, and the Americas.

And so right now, my team, I have a director of revenue operations in EMEA, who is my eyes and behaves as my second or my right hand in the EMEA market because he understands the business better than anyone. And then I have his sequel in APAC, a very talented woman that has been with the business, again, like, I believe, like four years or six years. So really talented people around me.

Then I have an analyst because that’s one of my weaknesses. Data is something that I understand and that I am really dangerous at, but I understand it on the high level. So if you show me a Salesforce dashboard, I’m not going to crack, but I’m not going to be the person that goes and analyzes the numbers because that was never part of my career. So that’s why I have an analyst.

And then on top of that, I have a program manager and lead management agency of about 12 people that are in charge of the lead management programs in JML.

So it’s quite a big team for something that a lot of people don’t understand yet, but it’s a very nimble team and it’s a very agile team because we are starting to implement new tools at the company that the company honestly was afraid to try. And so far it’s been shown a success.

And I think that’s what I am good at, at recognizing the talent that I see and to make that larger than life. And so I’m really good with people and people trust me for some reason. And I think that’s one of my strongest suits in my career. Yeah. And I think the point that really stood out to me there was you mentioned no one really knows what revenue operations is.

Well, that’s really what brings us here today, right?

Is to try and get our heads around it a little bit. And so I appreciate the transparency. So in terms of building from scratch, you’ve got your team starting to come together.

In terms of some of those early challenges that you’re working through when you got through the door on your 30, 60, 90 days and you were taking stock of everything that you were going to be building around and building from, what challenges were you faced with at that point?

The first one is going to sound a little kind of like, oh my God, going back to 2000. But the first thing that I…

They didn’t have a CRM by any chance?

No, the first thing that I saw was that there was not a common definition or understanding of the taxonomies or what is an MQL or an SQL or an SEL. And even though Forrester right now has this methodology called the demand waterfall framework, where you’re not supposed to measure MQLs, but you are supposed to measure opportunities. JLL is not there.

JLL is a little behind that because of the size of the organization and because marketing, digital marketing is fairly new. It’s a fairly new department.

So one of the first challenges was how do I make sure that people understand what is an MQL globally?

Because what was an MQL in Japan was never going to look the same in Germany or in France or in the US. And people had a hard time understanding what was the difference between an MQRI, an MQL and an MQL. So reporting was a big, big challenge and it’s still a big challenge, but I think it’s a challenge that is controlled now.

And the only piece that it’s kind of creating a little chaos is the data that we have, that we have to chase the salespeople, that not necessarily everyone is inputting the information in the CRM. So things that are very revenue operations, it’s exactly what we’re trying to solve right now. But the low hanging fruit was definitely lead management for sure. Yeah. What I’ve taken from that is it could have been worse.

It really could have been worse.

So in terms of you’ve been there for near enough 18 months now?

Yeah, about that. So about a year and a half.

And obviously given we’re recording this right at the end of November, what’s, and you kind of alluded to it earlier, but what’s a project that you’re working on right now that you’re particularly passionate about fixing?

I’m guessing we’ve come on a little bit since getting common definitions for lead status.

So what’s something that’s really top of mind for you?

So right now it’s putting the right tools back in the hands of this, of the business and by the business, I mean the salespeople.

So since it was, it was a very, some of the processes were very old school and they worked for a while, but now the new generations at JLL are starting to believe that the more intel you have in the accounts, the better you can target them and the better you can offer somebody. So I think one of the projects that excited me the most was bringing a chatbot to the website.

And I know it sounded kind of basic because in a startup, the implementation of a chatbot can be a week, four days, something like that. In a company like JLL, it took like around nine months or probably a little more.

And so it took the understanding of the competitor landscape, then the understanding of like, what are the teams that you’re going to work on?

Because in a startup, you deploy the tool, you work with IT and boom, that’s a win. In a company like JLL, you work with design, you work with IT, you work with product, you work with any number of teams and just finding the person that is going to help you make that happen is a challenge.

Close the buying, right?

Like you need to buy from leadership to say this is a tool that we want to invest in. But the opportunity of giving our customers the chance to choose how they want to interact with us is huge. And right now it shouldn’t be maybe, it should be a given. It should be people want to interact with us at their own times and their own moments and their own ways.

And we didn’t have that before. So thanks to the Revenue Operations team, now we have an extra channel for them to interact with us and it’s been super successful.

Who would know that people want to chat instead of waiting for a phone call, right?

A lot of people still believe in real estate that people are going to be waiting for you bringing the phone when in reality, the behaviors of the buyers right now, it’s not only about the millennials, it’s about the Gen Z and the generations that are more comfortable sending a chat or sending an email maybe. So that’s one of the projects that I’m very, very excited about.

You touched on a really good point there, which particularly in a large company is, oh my God, I’ve got to get all these different stakeholders involved with it.

Whereas, I’m sure she found before when you were a startup, it’s like, oh yeah, just go to one person.

And obviously in a Revenue Operations role, and I think I’d really like to touch that given the size of JLL and how many employees you have, the whole premise to me, anyway, one of the premises of Revenue Operations is to align, not only teams together, but processes and obviously the tech that you’re using.

So what is doing that like when you have hundreds of thousands of employees and different offices over the globe?

Obviously, you can’t possibly hope to do it over everyone, or maybe you can.

And so what does that process look like for you and how are you trying to align those teams together?

It’s a lot of work. It’s not a word that happens from night to the next day. It’s not an easy process because as you’re saying, like the schedules, number one, everyone is in different time zones. Getting a meeting with at least 25 people is almost impossible at this company. So just starting there, it’s kind of hard to manage time zones.

But I’ve always believed that if you want something, you’re going to work hard enough to get it. So I think everything starts by recognizing your champions and then try to start… Because everything is a cascade effect. If you start with leadership or with management, then those people are going to talk to their peers and to their direct reports. And then it’s more likely that that alignment is going to happen.

So I think the way I tackled it was, first of all, being empathetic to the work of others, because I can come to the table and say, I’m the new boss in town. Come and hear me out because this is important. And that’s an approach that is number one, very aggressive, that people do not react well to, and that it was not fair to them or to me.

And so the approach that I took was, hey, listen, I am the new cool kid in the block. I want to help do your job better and faster.

How can we make that happen?

Is there a way that I can, if you would have a magic wand right now, what would you do with that?

So something that I’m really interested to ask you, obviously, was going into 2023. And obviously, the market is very different now than it was 12 months ago. It’s been a very different year for go-to-market teams.

And as you’ve been building out the revenue operations function over at JLL, are you taking that into account for your plans going into the next year?

Are there any contingency planning that you’re building into it?

Or from your perspective, are you still plowing on ahead as you have been for the previous 12 months?

No, I think definitely the way the economy is right now has impacted everyone. And so not only budgets have been frozen and head counts have been frozen as well. And all these things that every single company is experiencing, like cut-skin, every single thing that you can imagine. JLL is not the exception. And so with that, I think the only answer to that is being able to do more with less.

And what I mean by that is I am starting to train my people or my team to become true journalists. And what that is, is if you are, for example, they call these T-shaped people in design thinking. So where the T is the areas that you can move in other areas and the larger part of it is your specialization.

So you remain specialized in something, but you keep learning about the other sides of the business in order to become really, really dangerous in different areas. The same way that I am today. And so I’m starting to create these mini generation of journalists, which is something that I learned at my previous company, because that’s what you need in situations like the one that we are living.

And so I think that’s one of the measurements that I am taking without losing my North Star, which is my North Star has always been revenue.

Right?

Like how do I prove revenue within this framework, within this methodology?

And so that’s where we are going. I really love the line of doing more with less.

And I’m actually curious, could you perhaps give an example in terms of that T shape of, you know, how you’re kind of branching out as part of it?

Yeah, for example, I have my program manager. He’s fantastic in organizing the schedules and everything. I asked him to do the training of revenue operations from PubSpot because I want him to understand an SLA or things that are not necessarily on his realm or his job. I don’t want my team to have the mentality of like, that’s not my job. So I’m not going to pursue it.

I want people to say, oh, you know what?

That’s interesting. Let me take a look at it. Let me take a stab at it. And so that’s one example. And I’m trying to do the same with every single person when it comes to revenue operations. Another example, if you are really good at Salesforce, why you are not equally good at Marketo or Eloqua or PubSpot or whatever that might be.

So you become these true revenue operations specialist or revenue operations manager, revenue operations director, whatever the title might be. Titles are a little irrelevant to me sometimes. So that’s an example. It’s a really interesting way of, it’s development really for people that are in revenue operations. And I tend to find with revenue operations in particular, you’re looking at the entire customer journey as we were talking about earlier.

And to your point of doing more with less, it’s very much looking at it and going, okay, what are we doing already?

What do we need to be doing more of to ultimately help us generate more revenue?

And ultimately, we should also be doing less of as well.

And it’s interesting that you’re building that into, would you say that kind of like career development plans for your teams?

Or is it more kind of a value-based approach?

A character building exercise of being open-minded to learning different tools, to learning different parts of the revenue model?

It’s more the latter. I think it’s more the latter. It’s more developing an attitude towards work. Because the only thing that we have for sure is change and uncertainty. And right now, it’s time for change. And I think that’s change and uncertainty.

So what we need is people that are coachable, that are willing to learn a new skill, that are willing to learn a new thing that it’s not on their comfort zone. And so I believe heavily on that because that’s the way they push me again to become what I am today. So you’re right.

Like doing more with less also means stop being distracted by the shiny things and start doing more of the things that are actually working and do more of the things that you can measure and track. Because if you can’t measure it or you can’t track it, then just to stop. There’s no other way just to stop.

Yeah, 100%. And I want to circle back around to something that we talked about much earlier in the conversation and something that we were kind of talking about pre-show of the different cultures. And obviously, I know your background coming from Mexico, moving into working in really the hub of it all at StarSeps in San Francisco.

So I’d love to know a little bit more about what your experience has been like, what that culture change was like, and then also what you found yourself going through that journey ultimately to becoming an executive, moving up to more of an executive level at JLL.

Oh, that’s a question that is really close to my heart because it wasn’t easy.

Honestly, I thought back in Mexico that the cliche of the Mexican not being loved in the US was only that a cliche. But it turned out that it was very true and that we are very discriminated in many industries and in many instances, we are not done discriminating people that we don’t understand or that they don’t come from the same background that we do.

So for me, it was changing everything. It was changed the way I eat, for example, the people here eat at 12 p.m. I used to eat at 3 p.m. The type of foods that I would find that were different, the humor until today, there are times that it’s hard for me to understand jokes around people that are my peers because culturally, humor comes from precisely from the culture.

And so it was everything. Understanding businesses, it wasn’t the same. Like the way you apply for a job in Mexico City is not the same that you apply here in the US. I had no idea what the film was a cover letter. Such a thing didn’t exist in Mexico City. So you change your entire soul in order to look for a better life or what you believe it’s a better life.

So far after 11 years, people keep telling me like, would you do the same?

Because I recently got my green card and it was 11 years after people told me like, would you do it again?

And my answer is no.

No, because there is no need to make a human pass through the most painful system probably in the world. Like the United States has one of the most penalized immigration system of the entire world. If you go to Canada, it takes you five years or six years to get a residency. If you go to Europe, it’s the same thing. People are willing to open their frontiers to immigrants.

That’s not the case in the United States. So I think the people that we come here and we say we are going to stay no matter what, we are a different breed of people.

And it has shown over and over again because the other Mexicans that I get to meet here and in New York and in Austin and in San Diego and in other cities, I see myself in them and they see their selves in myself. And I think that’s why we connect and that’s why I understand that no one is replaceable in a workspace. No one is replaceable in that person’s life.

So everything in this life is a journey. And it just happened that my immigration journey was a little longer than it should have been. But I finally did it and I’m still here and that’s one of the biggest achievements of my life probably. 100%. And I appreciate the openness around it as well.

Because ultimately, the decisions that we make and the journey that we inevitably follow, I find tends to shape who you are.

And it’s quite interesting that to your point, if you were given the option to do it again, would you?

And now it’s being known on this occasion.

It’s one of those, to me, it’s always one of those unanswered questions of, well, I wonder what would have happened instead?

What direction that you would have taken?

Would you have gone down the same route and gone into marketing and then all the way into operations?

Or would you have been a psychiatrist?

Yeah, exactly. Or maybe an actress or something very dramatic. I don’t know. But here we are and I am in marketing, thank God, and in revenue operations. And I am very happy with where I am in life today. Yeah.

Well, that brings us to a lovely point to ask the final question then.

If there is one book that you would recommend to other operations leaders, marketing leaders, revenue leaders, which would it be?

Recently I had two because I believe in this guy tremendously, David Gerhardt. He’s a CMO at Drift. Today he’s running his own thing. And he does fantastic content. So he recently released Founder Brand. And he talks about how he built the Drift brand based on the story of the founder and how you should do that over and over again. Very interesting aspect of how to build a brand around the business.

But I think more than that, that’s a business book. But more than that, a book that really changed my perspective of things is called A Whole New Mind by Daniel Pink. It’s unbelievable. Like people, if you’re looking to read a book that is going to change your perspective of things, this is the book.

It talks about how the right side people was, or the right side brainers were not considered in the past because we were seeing that as a creative people or that the creative people didn’t really bring anything to the table. And now how those right brain people are going to kind of rule the world because the way we see things is unique. So it’s very, very interesting.

So those are two books that I recommend to everyone. And then Anti-Fragile by Asim Taleb, because I think in spaces where you are feeling that you don’t know where to go or you don’t know what to do.

For me, being anti-fragile, most, it was never about going back to the state that things were. It’s about changing and evolving into a new type of human. And that’s what anti-fragility means, how to break a system in order to make it better at the end, but you have to break it first precisely. So those are three books I recommend to everyone. So yeah. I love that.

Most of the people that listen to this podcast are listening at home. So they’re not watching this video, but this is the first time that I’ve had a guest that has mentioned a book that I actually have in the book stack that sits behind me.

Which one you have?

Yeah. I was reading Founder Brand earlier this year. So I can second that recommendation. Yeah. The word by the way, resilient. I don’t believe in resilience. I don’t believe in that word. I hate it. It doesn’t speak to me at any level. So instead of resiliency, let’s just start being anti-fragile. That’s something that is more powerful. But anyways, Lee, yes.

Anyways, I love that though. I disagree, but I think that’s a whole different conversation that we can talk about another time.

Lorena, it’s been wonderful to chat to you. For anyone at home, I know you’re really active on LinkedIn. You do loads of podcasts.

And if anyone at home, anyone listening would love to connect with you, learn a little bit more and see more about what you’re talking about, where can they meet you?

You just hit it in the nail in the head. LinkedIn is the best way to reach out to me because I don’t reject anyone. I am very active in my messages and just reach out there or on Twitter. On Twitter, I am at Morales Lorena SF. On LinkedIn, I am at Morales Lorena. So find me there, connect with me and I’m very happy to hold that conversation always.

We’ll make it even easier and put it in the show notes.

Well, thank you again, Lorena, for a wonderful conversation and three great recommendations as well. And thank you to the listeners. We will catch you next week. Thank you all. Bye bye. Thanks for listening to Revenue Insights. If you want to learn more, subscribe to our newsletter and we’ll deliver every episode straight to your inbox. If you have any questions, feel free to connect with us on LinkedIn.

Our links will be in the episode notes. See you next week.